Comments on: The Effects of “Share Alike” http://smarterware.org/2310/the-effects-of-share-alike A blog about software Thu, 01 Dec 2011 21:02:53 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: tychoish.com/ http://smarterware.org/2310/the-effects-of-share-alike#comment-733 tychoish.com/ Sat, 18 Jul 2009 18:56:05 +0000 http://smarterware.org/?p=2310#comment-733 The thing that appeals to me about the GPL more than any other feature, is not *exactly* the community, or the "freedom," that it creates, but the way in which the GPL license __equalizes power__ between: users, programmers, and distributors of software. The GPL--espically in cases where the actual copy right is owned by all of the contributors (rather than pooled copyrights like mySQL and GNU project stuff) means that everyone comes to the software on an equal footing and ideally all of their positions and opinions are received on the basis of their merit and efforts. That's pretty cool. While I think the world of Daniel Jalkut and his software, and generally agree that he's right IF the goal of writing software is the proliferation of actual code; I'm not sure that the open source/free software movement is really about creating successful software as measured by the size of an installed base. I think it's more about equalizing the power between developers/users/vendors/etc. it's more about creating communities, and about pooling resources, and establishing a new mode of relating to software and technology as a whole. The thing that appeals to me about the GPL more than any other feature, is not *exactly* the community, or the “freedom,” that it creates, but the way in which the GPL license __equalizes power__ between: users, programmers, and distributors of software. The GPL–espically in cases where the actual copy right is owned by all of the contributors (rather than pooled copyrights like mySQL and GNU project stuff) means that everyone comes to the software on an equal footing and ideally all of their positions and opinions are received on the basis of their merit and efforts. That’s pretty cool.

While I think the world of Daniel Jalkut and his software, and generally agree that he’s right IF the goal of writing software is the proliferation of actual code; I’m not sure that the open source/free software movement is really about creating successful software as measured by the size of an installed base.

I think it’s more about equalizing the power between developers/users/vendors/etc. it’s more about creating communities, and about pooling resources, and establishing a new mode of relating to software and technology as a whole.

]]> By: emailtoid.net/i/6c4e9c80/… http://smarterware.org/2310/the-effects-of-share-alike#comment-690 emailtoid.net/i/6c4e9c80/… Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:09:46 +0000 http://smarterware.org/?p=2310#comment-690 Of course, the other side of this coin will be, we have to submit to intense scrutiny of all our online transmissions to make it work: http://is.gd/1rfwL Of course, the other side of this coin will be, we have to submit to intense scrutiny of all our online transmissions to make it work: http://is.gd/1rfwL

]]> By: Gina Trapani http://smarterware.org/2310/the-effects-of-share-alike#comment-686 Gina Trapani Tue, 07 Jul 2009 20:17:22 +0000 http://smarterware.org/?p=2310#comment-686 @Mike: Re: scraping content and running ads around it. The question is how much content and how--that's the issue of fair use. Google "scrapes" content from every web site and displays excerpts of it in its search results, with ads wrapped around it. Lifehacker and countless other blogs excerpt articles and often run ads around that (and the commentary). That is indeed fair use, and there's a big difference between an excerpt and a full post. Agreed. There's tons of shades of gray around this. AFAIK, it's not totally legally defined. (Yet?) I talked to an EFF lawyer about it at length this past March, and he said that it's up to the CC publisher to define what NC means to him/her, that there is no hard-and-fast legal definition. To me, taking a photograph I CC-licensed as NC and using it in an ad campaign, for example, like that girl whose Flickr photo showed up on an AT&T billboard that appeared around the world--that's commercial to me. But a blog who's running Adsense, syndicating a post or two of mine, not so much. At least, not enough for me to go after them. :) @Mike: Re: scraping content and running ads around it. The question is how much content and how–that’s the issue of fair use. Google “scrapes” content from every web site and displays excerpts of it in its search results, with ads wrapped around it. Lifehacker and countless other blogs excerpt articles and often run ads around that (and the commentary). That is indeed fair use, and there’s a big difference between an excerpt and a full post. Agreed. There’s tons of shades of gray around this. AFAIK, it’s not totally legally defined. (Yet?)

I talked to an EFF lawyer about it at length this past March, and he said that it’s up to the CC publisher to define what NC means to him/her, that there is no hard-and-fast legal definition. To me, taking a photograph I CC-licensed as NC and using it in an ad campaign, for example, like that girl whose Flickr photo showed up on an AT&T billboard that appeared around the world–that’s commercial to me. But a blog who’s running Adsense, syndicating a post or two of mine, not so much. At least, not enough for me to go after them. :)

]]> By: emailtoid.net/i/6c4e9c80/… http://smarterware.org/2310/the-effects-of-share-alike#comment-685 emailtoid.net/i/6c4e9c80/… Tue, 07 Jul 2009 15:42:26 +0000 http://smarterware.org/?p=2310#comment-685 I haven't figured out, yet, what constitutes "fair use". I think that's still in the courts. I see articles in EFF and Techdirt about it now and then (about the PHP and other server-side stuff, not just the client-side HTML, @Gina, to answer your question.) I suppose "fair use" is "snippets". How LARGE is a snippet. How many lines? Is fifteen lines a snippet, but sixteen lines a violation? Is scraping all but one line a "snippet" but all lines a violation? How picayune do we get? If I use an essential *four-line* CSS style technique developed by Dan Cederholm, without accreditation, and publish it as my own, for profit, is it a violation of NC? Are these valid questions? Does NC mean the copier can't really Share it with Accreditation requiring that the recipient Share it Alike even though the copier makes a Commercial profit? I haven’t figured out, yet, what constitutes “fair use”. I think that’s still in the courts. I see articles in EFF and Techdirt about it now and then (about the PHP and other server-side stuff, not just the client-side HTML, @Gina, to answer your question.)

I suppose “fair use” is “snippets”. How LARGE is a snippet. How many lines? Is fifteen lines a snippet, but sixteen lines a violation? Is scraping all but one line a “snippet” but all lines a violation?

How picayune do we get? If I use an essential *four-line* CSS style technique developed by Dan Cederholm, without accreditation, and publish it as my own, for profit, is it a violation of NC? Are these valid questions?

Does NC mean the copier can’t really Share it with Accreditation requiring that the recipient Share it Alike even though the copier makes a Commercial profit?

]]> By: kallistec.com/ http://smarterware.org/2310/the-effects-of-share-alike#comment-684 kallistec.com/ Tue, 07 Jul 2009 15:05:18 +0000 http://smarterware.org/?p=2310#comment-684 Gina, though I prefer BSD/MIT/Apache licenses I'm cool with the GPL. Except the "viral" clause. I just find it pretty lame that I lose my choice of how I'd like to license my own code the instant I use a GPL library somewhere. I'll strongly consider just writing my own instead. There is, of course, the LGPL for this exact purpose, but RMS and the FSF advocate that their supporters use the GPL even for libraries. <em>That's</em> what chaps me about the GPL. One might also consider that programmers need to eat and pay rent, but the options for making a living off of GPL software are limited. The dual-license strategy, as used by MySQL, for example, leads to community contributions being sold as proprietary software by Sun/Oracle. So where's the benefit over a liberal license? Anyway, as an end user, I don't care too much. But I am one of the ones you're shutting out if you license a freakin' library under the GPL. Gina,
though I prefer BSD/MIT/Apache licenses I’m cool with the GPL. Except the “viral” clause. I just find it pretty lame that I lose my choice of how I’d like to license my own code the instant I use a GPL library somewhere. I’ll strongly consider just writing my own instead. There is, of course, the LGPL for this exact purpose, but RMS and the FSF advocate that their supporters use the GPL even for libraries. That’s what chaps me about the GPL.

One might also consider that programmers need to eat and pay rent, but the options for making a living off of GPL software are limited. The dual-license strategy, as used by MySQL, for example, leads to community contributions being sold as proprietary software by Sun/Oracle. So where’s the benefit over a liberal license?

Anyway, as an end user, I don’t care too much. But I am one of the ones you’re shutting out if you license a freakin’ library under the GPL.

]]> By: Mike Cerm http://smarterware.org/2310/the-effects-of-share-alike#comment-683 Mike Cerm Tue, 07 Jul 2009 06:38:42 +0000 http://smarterware.org/?p=2310#comment-683 @Gina: I think that scraping content and showing it on a website with AdSense is certainly commercial. That's exactly what NC is supposed to protect against; the wholesale scraping all your content for for-profit display somewhere else. Honestly, how would that be any different from a commercial print mag reprinting a post as article, and placing ads around it? However, the Creative Commons license makes no attempt to curtail fair use. Since taking snippets and quotations for various purposes is protected by fair use, regardless of how you license your content, there are certain ways it can be used by others. This certainly would does not extend to to a commercial reproduction-in-full, be it in a newspaper or elsewhere on the web. @Gina: I think that scraping content and showing it on a website with AdSense is certainly commercial. That’s exactly what NC is supposed to protect against; the wholesale scraping all your content for for-profit display somewhere else. Honestly, how would that be any different from a commercial print mag reprinting a post as article, and placing ads around it?

However, the Creative Commons license makes no attempt to curtail fair use. Since taking snippets and quotations for various purposes is protected by fair use, regardless of how you license your content, there are certain ways it can be used by others. This certainly would does not extend to to a commercial reproduction-in-full, be it in a newspaper or elsewhere on the web.

]]> By: Gina Trapani http://smarterware.org/2310/the-effects-of-share-alike#comment-682 Gina Trapani Tue, 07 Jul 2009 02:49:29 +0000 http://smarterware.org/?p=2310#comment-682 @Albo: Yes, this is a sticky wicket. My understanding is that NC depends upon how you interpret commercial. Is commercial scraping content and showing it on a web site that runs Adsense ads? I guess it is in the purest sense, but that's not how I'd define commercial, and I wouldn't go after anyone doing that with my content here at the site. As for whether or not NC defies the GPL, are you wondering if you're violating WordPress' GPL by using the NC license? I thought the GPL license applies to the PHP code of WordPress, not its HTML output. @Albo: Yes, this is a sticky wicket. My understanding is that NC depends upon how you interpret commercial. Is commercial scraping content and showing it on a web site that runs Adsense ads? I guess it is in the purest sense, but that’s not how I’d define commercial, and I wouldn’t go after anyone doing that with my content here at the site.

As for whether or not NC defies the GPL, are you wondering if you’re violating WordPress’ GPL by using the NC license? I thought the GPL license applies to the PHP code of WordPress, not its HTML output.

]]> By: ShadyPghGuy http://smarterware.org/2310/the-effects-of-share-alike#comment-681 ShadyPghGuy Tue, 07 Jul 2009 02:48:54 +0000 http://smarterware.org/?p=2310#comment-681 The problem with using GPL is that it is a parasitic license, everything it touches also has to be released under the same license. This can be very constricting and actually hinder the development and adoption of open source software. Look at the issue with ZFS and Linux, for example. Sun's fantastic ZFS file system is still not yet incorporated into the Linux kernel because their licenses won't mesh with one another despite both being open source. I suppose a software license along the lines of the Creative Commons attribution-noncommercial-share alike license would be the way to go to get your software to see the widest adoption without running into someone making money off of your work. The problem with using GPL is that it is a parasitic license, everything it touches also has to be released under the same license. This can be very constricting and actually hinder the development and adoption of open source software. Look at the issue with ZFS and Linux, for example. Sun’s fantastic ZFS file system is still not yet incorporated into the Linux kernel because their licenses won’t mesh with one another despite both being open source.

I suppose a software license along the lines of the Creative Commons attribution-noncommercial-share alike license would be the way to go to get your software to see the widest adoption without running into someone making money off of your work.

]]> By: Albo Fossa http://smarterware.org/2310/the-effects-of-share-alike#comment-680 Albo Fossa Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:56:16 +0000 http://smarterware.org/?p=2310#comment-680 I've always puzzled over whether the NC (in the Creative Commons license) violates the spirit of GPL... I read over and over the discussion at http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/9557 ... One "commercial copying" of the software, of course, is transmission by the ISP. Another is for indexing by GoOgle. How do we finally define NC. Tricky. For my inability to decide, I've left my website as BY-SA I’ve always puzzled over whether the NC (in the Creative Commons license) violates the spirit of GPL… I read over and over the discussion at http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/9557 …

One “commercial copying” of the software, of course, is transmission by the ISP. Another is for indexing by GoOgle. How do we finally define NC. Tricky. For my inability to decide, I’ve left my website as BY-SA

]]> By: danielpunkass http://smarterware.org/2310/the-effects-of-share-alike#comment-679 danielpunkass Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:34:06 +0000 http://smarterware.org/?p=2310#comment-679 Gina, yeah you're sort of lucky if you have a strong gut feeling or instinct about where you want your code to go. It takes a lot of the practical considerations off the table and lets you steer with your heart. Nothing wrong with that :) Gina, yeah you’re sort of lucky if you have a strong gut feeling or instinct about where you want your code to go. It takes a lot of the practical considerations off the table and lets you steer with your heart. Nothing wrong with that :)

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